Sheila Xu On Her Mission To Becoming The First Deaf Astronaut
Jillian Curwin: Hi everyone. Welcome to Always Looking Up the podcast where no one is overlooked and height is only a number, never a limit. Hosted by me, Jillian Curwin. Each week I will be having a conversation about what it is like to live in a world that is not necessarily designed for you. In this week's episode, I sat down with Sheila Xu and her interpreter, Justin Baldi. Sheila is an oral and signing Deaf woman, who broke barriers as one of the first deaf commercial analog astronaut trainees and the first deaf Asian female pilot. As director of development at AstroAccess, a nonprofit advancing disability inclusion in the space sector. She holds degrees from MIT, Harvard, and Wharton and promotes the leadership potential of deaf and hard of hearing people and people with disabilities in all sectors. Justin is an American Sign Language interpreter with over 20 years of experience focusing on space and other STEM related fields. We discussed the importance of investing in disability entrepreneurship, how she is redefining who can be an astronaut and making outer space accessible and much, much more. Let's get into it. Hi, Sheila.
Sheila Xu: Hello. Hello. What's up?
Jillian Curwin: How are you?
Sheila Xu: I'm doing pretty good today. I'm here in Italy. It seems like the weather is going to be ehhh today, is going to be raining, but other than that, it's pretty good.
Jillian Curwin: Well, I'm jealous that you're in Italy. I always wanted to go. The weather is also rainy here in New York, but we kind of needed that after a bit of a heat wave.
Jillian Curwin: So I'm taking the little drizzle we have today.
Sheila Xu: Yeah. Same here. Same here. It's been very hot.
Jillian Curwin: I'm so, I've been looking forward to this conversation for a long time. I'm really excited to be talking with you. And I guess my first question is, for any one in my audience who may not know who you are, why don't you introduce yourself? Tell them a little bit about yourself.
Sheila Xu: Sure, I can do that. I would start by saying that I am the first deaf Asian female pilot in history. I'm, I'm a researcher slash scientist, disability advocate, and hopefully a future astronaut. One of my goals is to go to space and come back, and hopefully be one of the first deaf people to do so. I'm also the director of business development at AstroAccess. And Astro Access is a non-profit initiative that is trying to advance disability inclusion in space. So my area of expertise is multi-modal communication systems, meaning that I think about how we communicate in different ways beyond what's the typical spoken language. For example, if there's a radio failure that happens during an emergency, what do you do? What's your backup? Or you have to think about how to reduce risk when you're trying new things and that no one has ever done. So it's all different ways of communicating that we have to figure out. And my whole goal is to have all of that be included in human exploration, whether it be space or even cave exploration, because I really do believe that the human exploration activities should be open to everyone. They should be accessible and inclusive and include people with disabilities, and that includes deafness.
Jillian Curwin: I first just want to say I am so impressed. As someone who was raised by a child growing up during the space race, he, my dad, definitely passed that love and fascination onto me. And so hearing the work that you're doing as an individual is just incredible. And also in the fact that you are making something that for so long has been perceived to be inaccessible, that you are striving to make it accessible to our community is just absolutely amazing. I'm kind of at a loss for words, and I know we're going to get into it in a little bit. And I think, you know, the question that I ask all my guests is, how do you define being disabled?
Sheila Xu: Well, that's an interesting question. There's a lot to unpack with that one. Thank you. As a deaf person, when I say deaf, I see myself as part of a community. Part of a culture with a capital D deaf. And I'll explain for the audience who doesn't really know the difference between a capital D deaf and lowercase d deaf. So capital D means that they're involved in the Deaf culture, which already has their own language, values and norms, while lower d deaf is more focused on the audiological definition. The medical definition of someone who doesn't have hearing. So meaning deaf and hard of hearing people or DHH people represent a range of hearing losses. Some have some signs, some don't sign. Some are oral and they're not really included in the deaf community. Like myself, I am both. I sign and I'm oral because I have a cochlear implant so I can talk when needed or I can sign. So really it depends on the person and the context that I'll often go back and forth between the two. But in the big D Deaf community or the culturally Deaf community, we don't really see deafness as being a disability because we don't think it's a problem. It's just part of our culture. It's part of our identity. But at the same time, we do have to have that disability label so we can have access to services under the ADA. Like, how can we get interpreters or car or services that we need? So we do have to be labeled as disabled by the law. So this way we can use the Americans With Disabilities Act. But we also know that deaf people can have other disabilities as well. Because currently there is a new word in the community called deaf, hard of hearing and Late-Deaf, DeafBlind, DeafDisabled. So there's a lot of different subcategories to deafness. And I believe that it's really crucial to support Deaf, the Deaf community, as well as the disabled community as a whole, to work together for our rights to have access to this world, because this world was not designed for people like us.
Jillian Curwin: There's a lot that you said there that I find really fascinating, in particular, when you're talking about how with capital D Deaf, with the, the culture and community, that it doesn't necessarily, and please correct me at any time if I'm misspeaking, identify or use the label disabled, but because of the laws, in order to get that access, the access needs, the accommodations made, we...you do have to use that label. And it's interesting when the laws... It's almost as if not, not necessarily that they don't apply, but it's like an interesting intersection there between the law and the community and the culture.
Sheila Xu: Absolutely. I think I don't it's some kind of tension sometimes within the community we should be seen as equals to everyone else out there. But at the same time, for us to succeed, we need to get those those accessibility features. So I feel like there's some type of tension between like who I am that I don't, I'm fine being Deaf, and it's not a disability, but we still do need access to services. So yeah, that's why I say this. It's a very complicated issue. And there's already been papers written about this and journal articles.
Jillian Curwin: So yeah I think it's just... I think it lends to a conversation that I think happens, you know, in the little person community that's also sometimes a point of tension or like an intersection as well as do we identify as a community as disabled. And some people would say yes, and some people would say no as to their identity, but understanding that they have to use that label in order to get their access needs met because, like you said, this world is not designed for us.
Sheila Xu: Exactly. That's exactly what it is.
Jillian Curwin: I want to pivot to learning more about your story. Starting at the beginning, where did your interest in the sciences first come from?
Sheila Xu: That would be thanks to my family. My dad, he's a scientist and mathematician as well. And he already had a PhD in nuclear physics, so it was already there. It was influenced in my home over and over and over again. My dad would tutor me. He'd help me with my homework. I mean, you couldn't avoid it in my house. My mom, she's not a scientist, though. She's more of a business person. But my dad was a big influence in my interest in science. So one of my the issues I had growing up was that I never saw any deaf scientists. I mean, maybe 1 or 2 here or there, but really there was no deaf role models out there. And my dad was very, very supportive, very encouraging of me. So he encouraged me to study, to excel in school. And so I studied my ass off all the time. And and then in high school, I started to think about college in my future. What did I what did I want? And so MIT was my dream school.
Jillian Curwin: Okay.
Sheila Xu: And as everyone knows, it's very, very, very competitive, being accepted to MIT. Which means I had to beat all these hearing people for, just for a spot. So I started early in high school. I started taking the SATs, AP classes, any other tests I could to try to show that I could challenge myself and be accepted to MIT. I did after school activities, such as working in a wet chem lab where I would focus on various projects like mostly Earth and environmental science projects. Luckily, I worked with PhD students and professors, and they were able to show me how to work in the wet chem lab. And I was working with gaseous mercury at the time, meaning I had to be donned in this big old suit. Like the big white suit, had the booties on, it had to be in a clean room. So I was like, oh wow, okay. There was that big old... I realized with the fan in the clean room, I couldn't hear anything. So communication was a struggle. And at the time I didn't know sign language yet, and I was still aural with a cochlear implant. So I was struggling to communicate and I really felt like, do I really want to do this type of science work in a clean room if I can't hear anybody and communicate?
Sheila Xu: But luckily I was accepted to MIT. Then I had the option to explore various types of science work, and I got an internship at NASA over at JPL, but I was not working in a clean room. I was working for building forecast models of California sea level rise for the next hundred years. So, meaning my time was spent sitting in an office on a computer, just building models. And I realized all then I didn't enjoy working alone in my office. I mean, I had my own office. It was nice, but I didn't enjoy it. Just sitting in there all day long on the computer. I'm sure that fits a certain type of person, but that's not me.
Jillian Curwin: I get that.
Sheila Xu: So I started thinking about what type of science can I do? And I thought maybe, because I like Earth science, I mean, I can work outside, collect samples, go to the labs, run tests, all of that. But life kind of doesn't always go that way. And I became interested in different field. So for my undergrad, I ended up majoring in earth science and the humanities major. Like so science, technology and society, STS. So for my humanities major, I had to have a senior thesis. I was like, okay, so I was thinking about thinking about it and I was like Deaf business. I could focus on the Deaf economic system, how consumers, employees, businesses, you know, how the market would work in the Deaf community. How do Deaf businesses operate? So I kind of looked into that. I did some research in both the US and Europe to compare the two. And I realized I was very interested in this business thing, how the economy works and how everyone supports each other. And I realized business is a way to help the Deaf and disabled community grow. Because so far, we've always been underserved. We've not been... We've been undereducated, underemployed. So what if one of the ways for them to skyrocket is through business? So after I graduated, I moved to Italy and did research on Deaf businesses of people who live in Italy.
Sheila Xu: I also taught at a university in Venice. And then after a couple of years, I realized my husband and... I got married to a Deaf Italian guy. And I've been here now from a year after COVID. And then I decided at that point I wanted to move back to, to the U.S. to get my Masters, where I studied public policy at Harvard and an MBA at Wharton. So then, during grad school, I had a lot more exposure to what was going on in science and space. And of course, I've had that interest in space, but it didn't feel accessible for me. It's like there's nobody that I knew who was Deaf or disabled in the space community. But thanks to an organization named AstroAccess, I realized this is my opportunity to get back into the space and sciences again, and I've been now back in the space industry for 3 or 4 years. I hope to continue that because now is a great time to be involved in the space industry, because it's opening up to more and more people, meaning more regular Joes, not just people who have quote unquote, "The Right Stuff" or the perfect health. You know that old philosophy.
Jillian Curwin: Right. I find that so fascinating in so many ways. And it's interesting because I didn't think about, with the sciences, how much communication plays a role in it. I'm not a science person. Science was not my strong suit in all throughout school. But, you know, being able to communicate and work together in a lab... I didn't think about the communication aspect to it. And you're absolutely right. And it's so... I think it's just so... and I think it's something that's not necessarily thought about. And when we think about science is that there is that communication part to it, whether it's just, you know, two people working in a lab or more communication, you know, communicating as a whole... And I think that's so important. And, and then, sorry, I'm like looking at my notes and my questions at the same time. When so you say, like with the businesses and, I think, I completely agree. I think that business is a really important way and an important step to helping both the Deaf and disability communities grow. And I don't think that's something necessarily that's talked about or considered. And I'm curious, like, did you feel like that as you were learning more, as you were pursuing this, did you feel that there was nobody else having these conversations or in pursuit of these same ideas alongside you?
Sheila Xu: Well let's see. So less than ten years ago, when I was in undergrad, the discussions about Deafness, Deaf... Deaf entrepreneurship or disability entrepreneurship, there was very, very, very small. But luckily I've had the opportunity to converse with a Deaf researcher who is researching Deaf business as well, who became my senior thesis advisor, and they were more focused on life experiences, while I was more focused on the economic system as a whole. Not so much just one individual person, but just how the actors play a role in the system.
Jillian Curwin: Gotcha.
Sheila Xu: And when you're in school, like MIT, everyone is just very smart and accomplished and skilled, and they're always busy. They're always doing stuff. And I kind of looked around at that, at the, my hearing peers, and I realized some of them have already started businesses, got investors got money. And I'm like, wait, how do they do...? How did they get all this money for all these different purposes? And I realized why can't a Deaf or disabled person do the same thing? What's the barrier for them here? I mean, hearing people don't have the barriers, but what are the barriers for the disabled community? And obviously, I found a lot of barriers, not just attitude, but also policy rules, legislations. What kind of access is already included in the system? For example, luckily, in the United States, we have what's called VRS, which is video relay service, and we can call any hearing person 24/7. But outside of the US we don't have that service. So which means Deaf people outside the US have to get more creative of how to call someone. Maybe they have to hire a hearing person to make phone calls for them, or they'll have a family member go, go with them to a government meeting. So I mean, it's... I think that's one of the major reasons that the system as a whole, and what type of support it offers, really, would... it plays a role in how people set up businesses. For me, the number one biggest issue that I saw, though, was attitude and awareness. If you can solve awareness and attitude then the rest is easy.
Jillian Curwin: I agree, I think a lot of the conversations from, my, you know, in terms of like as disability and business, as in companies in general, it's kind of just about getting into the door. And after that, as long as like that need is met, then nothing else is really thought of or considered or given the same attention. And it's like, no, there's not... a lot more to it than just getting somebody in the door. It's making sure that they have the resources that they need to be able to succeed in the business and to feel that they are valued and are given the same amount of respect and deferences, you know, any non-disabled or hearing employee or hearing person or non-disabled person would be.
Sheila Xu: Absolutely. I couldn't, I couldn't have said that better myself. And I've heard a lot of horror stories of Deaf people trying to get investors. I mean, this was more in the past than now, and investors wouldn't provide interpreters. I'm thinking these venture capitalist businesses have so much money, they can provide interpreters.
Jillian Curwin: Yeah.
Sheila Xu: It's chump change. I mean, in my opinion, though, it was their loss. They didn't, they don't understand what's going on, what's happening in the disabled or Deaf community. I mean, they could have so many ideas to solutions of these problems, but they don't want to provide interpreters or access to this, to these people to provide those solutions. So it's their loss.
Jillian Curwin: I agree completely. Was there a moment, a defining moment, or like a series of moments that led to your scientific interests and your pursuit, scientific pursuits and your business... background and expertise is like... Was there a defining moment where they intersected?
Sheila Xu: So it really depends on what type of business you want to start. Some businesses are easier to start than others. For example, a consulting business is easier to start than, say, a tech startup or a science based business. There's more of a challenge there. You need to have more social capital, more networking, and you have to have the ability to, how to communicate your thoughts to people you don't know who don't also don't know the Deaf community or disabled community. And you have to have the ability to break down their barriers, which in itself is really hard. So, using my grad school and undergrad school experience again, being thrown into an environment where everyone is high-performing and really, really smart, you can't help but just kind of pick it up along the way with whatever you do. I watched and learned and I, I'm always thinking if they can do it, why can't I? Why can't my community do this? Why can't we do the same thing? And I noticed from my research that with Deaf business owners, there's a lot of decisions that are being made without their input. They're not there. They're not at the table to make these decisions. And I'm thinking to myself there was probably just a lack of understanding and... about how policy works: what makes good policy, what makes bad policy. That was one of the reasons why I decided to go to school for policy: to see how it works and, of course, to build my network there, because I think policy is so critical. Policy is the foundation of everything. You can't have business without policy. You can't have accessible services without policy.
Jillian Curwin: Right.
Sheila Xu: Policy and law, I should say, they both go hand in hand.
Jillian Curwin: That's so true. And I think, you know, in talking about how like, there's not this thinking... It's almost like that, they really... There's no awareness that they need to be thinking about who's not in the room and why are they not in these rooms in the first place. Particularly when it comes to the Deaf and disabled community like, there isn't that awareness that they that they're not allowed or are able to enter these rooms in the first place, to be part of these conversations in regards to setting policy, in regards to writing these laws, in regards to making these businesses and industries accessible.
Sheila Xu: Absolutely. Unfortunately, I do have to say from my experience that a lot of industries are kind of they're...they're gate... they're gatekeep[ing].
Jillian Curwin: Yeah.
Sheila Xu: Honestly. And when people intentionally gatekeep, then your work becomes so much harder. And that first step to go in is practically impossible. And I can speak from experience in the space industry. Man, I don't know. I mean, I'm sure, you know, the space industry is very white, male, non-disabled centric.
Jillian Curwin: Right.
Sheila Xu: And I went into the room and I was the only Deaf person. And I mean, sometimes I'll have two interpreters with me. And of course, with that, everyone always looks at me, and I'm used to that now. But it does feel like there's more of a burden of thought, like how I represent the entire community and how I will, how I affect their perspective of Deaf and Hard Of Hearing people forever. So there's a lot of pressure for me, but you can't push for change if you're not willing to step up, if you're not willing to speak up. And I think it really takes a lot of courage and willingness to just show up and do what's important, do that important work that you feel will get you somewhere, and especially if it's in a space you don't feel welcome to prove you can do it.
Jillian Curwin: I agree.
Sheila Xu: I've already had people who have not been nice to me thinking, oh God, she's just... she can't become an astronaut. She can't do this, she can't do that. But I just look at them like, oh, you guys are not smart people. You don't know what you're talking about.
Jillian Curwin: And how satisfying... Before we get into making space accessible, I want to ask, how satisfying is it when you get the opportunity to prove them wrong?
Sheila Xu: Very, very satisfying. I, I'll be like, do you really know what you're talking about? Are you qualified enough to talk about this?
Jillian Curwin: I love it.
Jillian Curwin: And so, what does, you know, pivoting to the topic of space, which, like you said, I think a lot of us growing up and even now have this idea of space and space exploration, as, you know, thinking of like representations like Apollo 13, which is one of my favorite movies, perhaps my favorite movie of all time, The Right Stuff. You know, very, like you said, white, male, non-disabled centric. So what does making space accessible look like?
Sheila Xu: That can mean many things. One of my favorite quotes is, "If we can make space accessible, we can make any space accessible." So, accessibility in space, I mean, in my mind that, that's several things. You have the design of the spacecraft, which include various space systems, space rovers, spacesuits and anything related to the human body, how we can make things like that and accessible and be adaptable for various body types and various people. We, of course, we need work opportunities. We need the opportunity to get into the door and feel supported, and that we can succeed and get promoted up to a leadership position because it's very important. That's a very important thing for me is, I don't see enough Deaf or disabled leaders for many positions, especially in the space industry and beyond. There it's, there is no Deaf or disabled leaders. So it's great when they talk about accessibility inclusive workplace. But... And we're going to hire Deaf people. Fine. But what about promoting them to leaders? What about CEOs? C-suite level positions? You know where these people are. Like, we have to meet these people there.
Sheila Xu: So that's just another way of gatekeeping is like, they'll hire, but they won't support any sort of promotions. So we need to get promoted to leadership positions. Let's see... Workplace culture. Don't ask people with disabilities to prove their worth or to prove their need for...
Jillian Curwin: Yes.
Sheila Xu: For accessibility. Have them com-, comfortable, not say I need accessible services for this interview or for this job and have people listen to that. Like, to design and build policy to meet their needs. Like, some people need to work from home for various reasons. They can't come into an office. Okay, how can we make that possibility? But... And not just for Deaf people, but for everyone. And it makes it a positive work environment. So yeah, I think that those are how to make it work and policy are very, very important to make space accessible for both here on Earth and space, because I'm sure, at some point, millions of people are going to be working and living in space. So how do we make that environment accessible?
Jillian Curwin: You bring up so many good points, and I think, you know, part of when we talk about, you know, making space accessible, I think, and certainly I do like when approaching you originally was thinking, you know, talking about just like the act of space flight and actually being an astronaut, going to space and making that part of it accessible when really, as you clearly, as you so clearly explained, like... It's so much more. It's again, institutional. I don't think we necessarily think of the space industry as like an institution, but it really is. And it's, and so I think that you do have to dismantle all of this. Yeah.
Sheila Xu: Again, just remember. Sorry. Yeah. Just, just remember policy and law. We can't make space accessible without good policy and good laws.
Jillian Curwin: Exactly.
Sheila Xu: Like one of my dreams is to see the federal government say you need to make your, your spacecraft, or whatever space product, accessible, including accessibility, just accessible. So, I know that's not happening right now, but we'll see what happens in the upcoming years.
Jillian Curwin: It needs to happen. I, I there... It needs to happen.
Jillian Curwin: I want to talk into, before we kind of get into like, the wrapping up, closing questions you know, your personal journey as...you know, becoming an astronaut. What has that been like for you? I know you got your pilot's license, you've flown in Zero-G. Like, what is this journey of becoming, you know, an astronaut been like for you?
Sheila Xu: So far, there hasn't been a Deaf person who's been to space and come back yet. And I'm really hopeful to see that in the next 5 to 10 years. I would love to become one of those people, to go to space and come back. And my journey, I will admit, it was hard at times. It was really hard to be the only person in the room full of people who don't understand you. Sometimes they don't support you. I mean, of course, I had a group of people who supported me, but the industry as a whole can sometimes be very, very rejectful. They don't give you opportunities. They don't speak up, or they don't put you in speaking positions to allow you to, to tell your story. And they, they, a lot of times I just want to change the philosophy of "you have to have the right stuff" to "all bodies all the time". And I tell people over and over again, rocket science is easier than dealing with people. Rocket science is a lot easier than dealing with people.
Jillian Curwin: So as someone who does not know rocket science, I agree.
Sheila Xu: Right, right. I mean, yeah. So someone has said that knowing that a solo journey can be lonely but, that's why I said you need to be willing. You need to have that courage to show up and show who you are and be willing to do that hard work in places where we're not fully welcome. I think that's one way to push for change.
Jillian Curwin: I agree, and I think, you know, we talk about a lot of times in the conversations I've had, both on this podcast and off the podcast, about being the only only in the room, whether that's the only disabled person, only little person, only women with dwarfism, etc. in the room. And in some way, like, we talk, I think, about the importance of it and kind of being that first, but there's no one that we don't necessarily always have those conversations about the weight of that and how it does take a lot of courage and a lot of bravery to put yourself and be that only person in the room. Because you are, in many ways, like you said, like you are alone in it. And it's one thing to celebrate it, but it's also having to realize, you know, understand the reality of what that really means. And it's not, you know, it's multifaceted being that in that situation.
Sheila Xu: Absolutely. I agree with that. For me, it's really important to have a community and the support of that community, meaning where it's not just where I'm at physically, but also knowing that there's people in my corner supporting me behind me, the Deaf community. I have other Deaf and Hard Of Hearing friends in the space industry. I mean, there's a couple now, still not a lot, but a couple there. So there's a lot of different communities that I think it's great to be a part of that, to support you. So I don't feel fully alone.
Jillian Curwin: And that's, I think, really important, really beautiful too. And especially knowing that it's, you know, changes are being made, that you're driving these changes. And I'm curious, as you're continuing in these pursuits and these endeavors, you know, if your younger self could see you now, what do you think... What do you think she would say? What do you think she would...? Would she believe what she's seeing?
Sheila Xu: No. My younger self... Well, let me back up. At the age of 18 and 19 and looking at myself in the mirror, I didn't like what I saw. I didn't like being Deaf, I. I just wanted to be normal, so to speak. I grew up in the mainstream program where I was the only Deaf person in the school. But then, when I got into MIT and I met other Deaf people in Boston I realized, oh, I now am becoming more comfortable with myself because I know how to speak up. I know how to advocate for myself as well as for others. But I think my younger self would be looking at me and not recognize me. I'm very different person.
Jillian Curwin: I get that. I think that, you know, looking back, it's... I think, I kind of sometimes romanticize the idea of, like, your younger self seeing us now because I think, like, for me, there's a lot of like disbelief with where I'm at. But I think it's also true that, like, you know, my younger self wanted to be someone, someone she did not become. And I think it's important to also like, recognize that and recognize the journey to get to where you are now.
Sheila Xu: I agree. And hopefully we'll have the opportunity to be better role models for the next generation of Deaf and disabled community members because our access to information was limited. We didn't have the internet. That is not like it was now, but now there's it... Everything is out there. We can look, there's more data, there's more knowledge than we had before. And hopefully in the next for the next generation will be a lot better and a lot more seen in the mainstream media.
Jillian Curwin: Exactly. Looking ahead, what are your... What, what's next? What are your next dreams or goals that you're hoping to accomplish? Like, what's next for you?
Sheila Xu: My number one goal is to figure out how I can get into a rocket and be shot off into space. I'm working on that. When that happens, you'll know.
Jillian Curwin: Okay.
Sheila Xu: I'll make sure you know.
Jillian Curwin: I'd love to be there.
Sheila Xu: Right. Yeah. Other than that, I'm planning on engaging in more speaking opportunities because it's a really good way to raise awareness and impact people. I want to do a little bit more research for, for astronaut training. Writing papers, going to conferences, speaking at conferences. I've got a lot of things on my plate coming up.
Jillian Curwin: That's really exciting and I'm looking forward to watching you on your journey. And again, like, just so honored that you took the time to speak with me today on the podcast. This is one of my favorite questions that I get to ask all my guests, and that is, who do you look up to?
Sheila Xu: Currently or in the past?
Jillian Curwin: However you choose to answer that question is perfect.
Sheila Xu: Okay. Who...There... There's a list of people here, but who immediately comes to mind is, let's see... One of the people I look up to is Judy Heumann. For, as a disability advocate, I never really had the opportunity to meet her, but I know her work really allowed people like me, you, anyone else in the disabled community really do, really, really grow. Like, because all of her work was done before I was born so I... We owe a lot to her.
Jillian Curwin: I agree. I love her and continue to look up to her and her legacy as well.
Sheila Xu: Yep. Same here.
Jillian Curwin: Is there anyone in the space industry or anyone in the scientific industries that you look up to?
Sheila Xu: I would definitely say my peers. I have a lot of peers right now. There's this one very, very bright Deaf woman. We're about the same age. She's in a different field, though. She's going to becoming a professor at a really big university. She's focused on the intersection of psychology, linguistics, disability studies and... What was it? Neuroscience. So we've been talking a lot about science science topics, how that applies to our personal life. And she shared a lot of strategies and ideas on how to navigate this world as a Deaf woman. So really, yeah, I do look up to her. I wish we had more people like her.
Jillian Curwin: That's amazing. I, I agree, I think we need more disabled, Deaf and disabled people in these spaces, in science and elsewhere. I think, you know, as especially because we're not, you know, even, you know... We just celebrated, as of this recording it's August 1st, july was Disability pride month. We just celebrated the 35th year of the ADA, and there's still so much work that needs to be done with just getting people, as we were talking about earlier, into these rooms. And, you know, being the decision makers like, from the ground up, being in these rooms and these industries being the decision makers, being the leaders, just being being there.
Sheila Xu: Yeah. Agreed. One thing I would love to have more of is more convening power, meaning we can pull in various people, both from the disabled community, politicians, business owners... Just grab everyone together, put them in a room, have discussions and create something new. Just something different, something impactful. But currently I'm trying to build my convening, my convening power.
Jillian Curwin: I, I love... I agree, I love that. I've never heard of that phrase convening power, but it's, I, it's absolutely, completely agree. And I think it's a good pivot to ask, you know, where can, as you are continuing on in your work as you are...sorry, as you are building this convening power, if people want to follow you and see and support you and work, perhaps work with you, where can they do that? Where can they follow you? Where they can...? Where can they connect with you?
Sheila Xu: Yeah, well, that's funny enough. Convening power. I learned from a politician. They were giving a speech at Harvard where I went to grad school. I was like I kind of like that. I'm going to steal that word.
Jillian Curwin: Yes, I love it.
Sheila Xu: Yeah. So the things you can learn from politicians are amazing. But if people want to follow me, support me, you could feel free to reach out to me on LinkedIn, Instagram, Blue Sky or my personal website at www.sheilaxu.com. Really, it's very simple and please reach out.
Jillian Curwin: Yes, I'll have the links in the show notes for you to do so. Sheila, I cannot thank you enough for taking the time to speak with me to, on the podcast. It's really been a pleasure and honor, and I feel like there's so much more that I want to talk with you. So the door is always open for you to come back.
Jillian Curwin: I do have one final question before I have you sign off. And I know we talked about how a little earlier like, the representations of space or like, how we envision space are in part related or in due in part because of the movies that have come out of that space. But I'm curious, do you have a favorite space movie?
Sheila Xu: Yeah, actually I do. I'm a big Star Trek and Star Wars fan. I'm a big nerd. I've watched Star Trek ever since I was a kid. And again, thanks to my dad and captioning... With captioning.... Without the captioning, I wouldn't have understood Captain Kirk and Mr. Spock, their little interactions, their adventures. I wouldn't have understood any of that. So, and that's, again, another reason why accessibility is so important. It allows kids like me to watch TV and learn about space. So it's all thanks to captioning.
Sheila Xu: And new movies, within the last few years, I've been watching them all and I love them all. Now I want to see a movie with the Deaf, with Deaf Star Trek and Deaf Star Wars. I think that would be fun.
Jillian Curwin: Yes, because I know they've had disability...my understanding, like on Star Trek before, right? Like I think there have been disabled characters before.
Sheila Xu: Yeah. Yeah. Geordi LaForge, the the guy with the the glasses. But it was really cool how they use technology to help, quote unquote, help him see.
Jillian Curwin: Yes. And they're proving that in the future, you know, there will be disabled people like, disability will be in space in the future. So let's see more of it now.
Sheila Xu: Exactly. But with a more modern perspective, a more modern take.
Jillian Curwin: Yes. Most absolutely. Most definitely. Most needed.
Sheila Xu: All right. Well, that's a call out there for any movie filmmakers out there to see, if you want to produce or type that type of movie, let me know.
Jillian Curwin: Yes. Make it happen. Again, thank you so, so much for speaking with me. The final, final thing I just have to ask of you is for you to remind my listeners that height is just a number, not a limit.
Sheila Xu: Oh, I just want to remind all of our listeners out there. Height is the number, not a limit.
Jillian Curwin: Always Looking Up is hosted by Jillian Curwin and edited and produced by Ben Curwin. Please make sure to rate, review, subscribe, and follow on Spotify so that you never miss an episode. Join us on Patreon for early access to weekly episodes and bonus content. Follow me on Instagram at @jill_ilana and the podcast at @alwayslookingup.podcast For updates and check out my blog, JillianIlana.com for more insight about what it is like to be a little person in an average height world. Thanks for listening. See you next week.
Listen To Sheila’s Episode
Join The Patreon: HERE
Follow Sheila:
Instagram: @sheilazxu LinkedIn: Sheila Xu Website: https://sheilaxu.com
Follow Me:
Instagram: @jill_ilana , @alwayslookingup.podcast TikTok: @jillian_ilana Website: https://www.jillianilana.com Email: alwayslookingup227@gmail.com