Milette Millington On The Current State Of Ableism In The Workplace

Image Description: A head shot of Milette Millington, a Black woman with braids, wearing glasses and a graduation cap and gown, smiling. Overlaid is the text “Always Looking Up. Episode 91 -> Milette Millington, Current State Of Ableism In The Workplace”

Jillian Curwin: Hi everyone. Welcome to Always Looking Up, the podcast for no one is overlooked and height is only a number, never a limit, hosted by me, Jillian Curwin. Each week I will be having a conversation about what it is like to live in a world that is not necessarily designed for you.

In this week’s episode I sat down with Milette Millington. Milette is a disability advocate and reporter at Caribbean Life News, where she covers disability as well as local and world news, politics, sports and entertainment from the Caribbean American perspective. We discussed her research on the impact of COVID on the disabled community in regards to employment, questions we would like to ask employers about the hiring process, the success rate of ableism and how it can not just be on the disabled community to fight disability discrimination. Let's get into it.

Hi, Milette.

Milette Millington: Hello, Jill. Thank you for having me as a guest.

Jillian Curwin: Of course. Thank you so much for coming on. I am very much looking forward to talking with you today.

To start, why don't you tell my listeners who may not know a little bit about yourself?

Milette Millington: Well, hello, everybody, to everybody listening. First, I'm going to start by just giving a physical description of myself and where I am. I am a Black woman with glasses and I am wearing a black sweater with a zipper and a hood. And I am seated on my bed here. And I have a yellow background, you see, behind me is my wall.

And yes, I am a journalist currently at Caribbean Life News, which is a New York City based publication. And I cover pretty much everything, disability included. So that's, you know, a snippet of just who I am and my career and what I do.

Jillian Curwin: Awesome. And we're going to delve into all that and more. And before we do that, though, I do want to ask, and it's a question I ask all of my guests, is how do you define being disabled?

Milette Millington: That is a very good question. I would say that I define disability as just not being scared to take on the naysayers. You know, not being scared to, you know, try something new or, you know, just fighting, you know, in all senses of the word, just not, you know, not being scared to fight and, like, speak up for things that, you know, that I feel are important, important to me. So, yeah, I’d say that's how I describe it.

And I would also say that if I had to put this in ratio format, I would say it's…I have this kind of ratio where I sit like, its, it involves perseverance, confidence and risk. So it's like, I guess maybe like, 85, 15, ten in terms of just, you know, being able to persevere through the hard stuff and just, you know, having confidence in my identity as a as a disabled person and also just not, you know, being able to being willing to take risks and just learn just in general as a human being. So, yeah, I’d say that's how I describe the concept of disability.

Jillian Curwin: I like that. I think your math of the ratios is pretty spot on, and I've never heard it. You're the first person I've heard of, kind of, describe that and I like that aspect that you bring to disability and, again, like that's why…The reasons I love asking that question is because everyone's answer is very different. And I think that comes from so much of wanting to understand that is, comes from so much of society, trying to tell us what disability means, trying to define us as disabled when really it's incredibly individualized and incredibly personal. And it's us kind of reclaiming our narrative and our identity in a very ableist society and environment. And I really, so I really like that you kind of talk about that and you talk about the risks because I think, and we've learned this definitely over the past few years that, you know, there are risks with being disabled. And I'm curious, can you go into that a little bit more?

Milette Millington: Well, I think it, again, I'm going to just preface it by saying that it varies by person and their individual experience. But I think, in general, risk, it just means like, you know, again, doing, doing the thing that I guess you're like super scared to do, or doing a thing that is, you know, very much, I guess, against the very much outside of the traditional norms of what, of what the world says disabled people should be able to do, as you know, and let alone being treated as people. You know, that’s, that’s a whole other conversation. But, you know, that's part of it, too.

Jillian Curwin: For sure. I feel like often when talking about disability, when the society as a whole talks about disability, they forget that it's individual, and that there are individuals at the heart of it, and they so much want to try to…it's…I don't really want to say that kind of like one size fits all in addressing it, but that's kind of, and you can that's kind of how it feels like to me. And I'm curious, like, do you think that's kind of how it feels like to you?

Milette Millington: I think, what I'll say in general, honestly, two things. First, the subject in general is not one dimensional. There are just, I mean, just across various conditions and so on. There's just a spectrum of things that can be possible for each individual person that is kind of in that subgroup.

And second, it is definitely intersectional because it does, you know, consider class, and race, and gender, and all the other things. They all, it all kind of, uh, it all just is kind of all under one big umbrella. It's like, disability plus other stuff, you know, plus, just race and all the other things. So yeah, I'd say, yeah, it's definitely one dimensional and…not one dimensional and intersectional for sure.

Jillian Curwin: I agree. And you know, it's well, something that I've always said on here is that it doesn't discriminate. Like, it affects everyone. All issues in the last election, all issues in the elections to come, are disability issues because it's a minority, but it can affect, it can one day include everyone in the sense that anyone can become disabled at any time. Not wishing that on anyone. Not saying that, you know, but like it's just it's a fact.

Milette Millington: And, and if more people could realize that, then, you know, we essentially would have a more inclusive world. And I mean, accessibility is a whole other umbrella, but we can get into that. Later on.

Jillian Curwin: Yes. Absolutely. I want to talk to you a little bit about, which kind of like, what drew me to wanting to have this conversation with you and wanting to talk with you is, you’re a journalist so I’m curious, first, what made you want to go into journalism as a career?

Milette Millington: Well, to put this in a nutshell, because there's a lot of details, but. Um, I've always been just a hardcore nerd. I’ve always been into books and TV and just anything that's just interesting, and that has, you know, depth. And I've always just always loved English. Growing up, English was like, my top subject right behind math. Math was like, my second favorite. So again, but going back to the whole ratio I had earlier, that's kind of where that kind of came in.

Jillian Curwin: Yeah.

Milette Millington: But yeah, English was my, it always was, is, and just is, you know, my favorite subject. And I just knew that I wanted to do something in that field, but not in the traditional sense because, you know, with the English degree, you can do pretty much anything. And I knew that I wanted, I knew that I wanted my work, whatever, you know, whatever work I did that involved writing at its core, I wanted that to have an impact and really kind of just live on past me. So that's kind of how I got into journalism.

And, you know, in terms of my own personal experience, just my life, I just knew that part of, I definitely wanted to include disability as part of that thing, of just, you know, being different in a good way. Not just covering the traditional stuff, but also just kind of incorporating, incorporating the subject that's pretty much not talked about in a positive light often. I mean, you and I both noticed, so, so yeah, that's, you know, kind of what got me into the field and, you know, kind of why I wanted to, you know, make disability part of my, you know, part of my coverage and the work that I do as a journalist for, you know, my various publications that I've worked with and the current publication I'm currently working with. So yeah, that sums it up in a nutshell, I think.

Jillian Curwin: And is it and you can kind of interpret this how you will, cause I think there's different interpretations of this question. Is it easy to talk about disability as a journalist? Like in your journalism, is it easy or like, how would you define it?

Milette Millington: Again, I would say that just covering the subject in general is not, it's not the easiest thing to come by for people in general, but especially for journalists who are disabled like me. And that's across the board regardless of whatever. Yeah, that's just in the, in the spectrum that it is by specific condition, you know, all those things are spectrums. And so it's definitely not easy for everyone. But for me, given my experience and given, you know, just the, the fight I've had to deal with just to, you know, flat out live, you know, it's just been kind of a a catalyst, I guess, for me to just kind of do the things in the field, cover things in field that are important to me. But also, you know, you know, make that positive impact that I, that I intend to leave on my work. So again, leaving, and again, making an impact so that it lives past me. So yeah, that I guess that would be how I would interpret that question. Just given my experience with disability.

Jillian Curwin: And is there a certain story that you've covered, or are currently working on, that has really resonated with you? And you feel that it's important that it's talked about from, you know, not just talking about disability, but that it's talked about from a disabled voice and a disabled voice is covering it? 

Milette Millington: I think, if I had to pick, I mean, I wouldn't necessarily say a story, but I think my, I mean…We can probably dig into this a little bit more, but my, my message project that I did for my, you know, for my masters degree, my capstone project that I did centered on the disability community in the city and the work challenges that, uh, that they have faced and you know, COVID’s influence on all of that. So I'd say that that's been something I did that published last, a year and change ago. So that's been, just seeing the impact of that it's, you know, just kind of hearing from folks who've read it and just seeing like, you know, how, how, how, how, how good it's been, how good it was, you know, how well written it was and just how much they loved it. And just hearing that, getting the, the, the positive reaction that it's got has just been great to, to…Just know that I did something that is not only, you know, positive for me, but also just the community at large.

So, yeah, I'd say that that's been the biggest thing. Uh, one of the biggest projects that I've worked on in my career that has really made that impact that I intend to do with the rest of my work.

Jillian Curwin: That's amazing. And let's kind of talk, I want to delve more into that because I know…I think I saw somewhere recently like, we're at the three year anniversary of, I think the beginning of COVID. And I've seen that talked about and, you know, it was this worldwide, this global disabling event that we're still dealing with. It's not over. So I kind of want to talk about this project more because I think it is so important for us to talk about and so what…? Let's go to the beginning. Where did the thesis where did the idea for this project come from?

Milette Millington: Uh, again, I think for me, part of it was just, you know, given my experience, but also just knowing how COVID has made people become disabled. It's just, you know, shout out to the long COVID crew out there. You guys are just amazing and just kind of reading and seeing, you know, how COVID’s, you know, infected people and made them become disabled, you know. That, as well as just my personal experience and also given that I was, from what I can tell I was, the only physical disabled person in my cohort at J [Journalism] School so, and I went to CUNY J School all the way. So, knowing that and just my experience, you know, I felt like why not do something that, why not cover something for my master’s project that nobody in the history of the school has ever done. Why not make history that way? So, you know, I felt super empowered by that. So, you know, and after ten months, three weeks and three days, it was finally out. And so, you know, it, it, it was really rewarding to see that it, you know, it was out in the world and that, you know, even now, it's still gaining traction. And just seeing the, the, the reactions from folks in the community has just been really, really rewarding for me just to know that, hey, I could do a lot more like this, a lot more stuff like this. And I have done a lot since then. So yeah, it's, that's kind of what, what got me interested in deciding to do this particular thing for my projects, so…

Jillian Curwin: That’s awesome. I love that you touched on the fact that you were, you said you were the only disabled person in your cohort.

Milette Millington: Physically disabled. Yes. By my, by my yeah. From everybody. Yeah. I was the only person that literally…I had to, I mean, with COVID, it's a blessing because I was able to do my whole program remotely. So that was a plus. And all my professors were just really, really accommodating and lenient with that, so kudos to everybody over there. You guys rock. I literally wouldn't, I just, I commend everybody for just being willing to work with me to, you know, to make it happen. So yeah.

Jillian Curwin: We love that. Yeah. But ah, you talked about, you know, like, being the only visibly…and like, so often because I, and speaking for myself, I know speaking to others, they were often, a lot of times the only visibly disabled person in the room. We’ll never be able to say like, that we're the only, because there are people with invisible disabilities who may choose to disclose, which is absolutely their right.

Milette Millington: Yes, totally. Totally.

Jillian Curwin: And it does often feel lonely. But, you know, I think, and you've clearly done it like, so often though, when you are the only person. Yes, it's lonely, but it's also turns into a moment of empowerment. And I love that you took that. And not just like said, you know, I'm going to, you know, [unintelligible] for anybody, you're going to create something that has, you know, talk about something from an issue, from a perspective that hasn't been talked about before. And to truly, like, embrace it and say we need to be talking about this. This is, you know, this is important. And I, you're just like, I'm going to do it. It hasn't been done before, but I'm going to do it. I love that.

Milette Millington: Yeah, I just, I just knew that I kind of, I wanted to have, I wanted the community to feel empowered. Like, hey, like I'm, I'm in here. I hear all of your, you know, your stories. And I'm, you know, I'm willing to listen. I'm willing to, you know, make this into something that has a positive impact and also changes the world. So kudos to me for...

Jillian Curwin: Yes. Absolutely. Kudos to you.

Milette Millington: Yeah. So I’m glad I'm helping to change the world in that way. And I will definitely share the links for you.

Jillian Curwin: Yes, I will get that. I'll be getting, we're going to put a pin in that cause I'll be getting all that information from you at the end. Don't worry.

Milette Millington: That's kind of, yeah. That kinda sums up, just...

Jillian Curwin: Yeah. So, let's, let's talk about it a little more. So, you started this, and you wrote this during COVID, well we're still in COVID, but like during COVID, did your research start at the beginning of the pandemic or did it start prior to COVID?

Milette Millington: So it was... the project dropped on December 29th of 2021. And as I said, it took ten months, three weeks, and three days. So it started, probably around February 2021 is when I started.

Jillian Curwin: Okay.

Milette Millington: Let me just run that math really fast. Um, let's see. March, April, May, June, July, August, September, October. December. Yeah. So right around, I think, the…I think March was when I like, officially started. But I had been, you know, between all the prep stuff…I did the prep stuff while I was in the fall in my fall semester at J School. I pretty much worked it, and I, I worked it, worked like the prep stuff during the summer while I was doing my internship.

Jillian Curwin: Okay.

Milette Millington: For my masters. So it was yeah. Say around February, March-ish is when I officially like got going on it.

Jillian Curwin: Gotcha. And where like for your research, what was the starting point? Because you're saying that this is 2021. So like, COVID is still kind of, it's only a year in. So like, did you, does your research start before COVID? Did you look, or like, right at the beginning of COVID? Like, where does your research start? 

Milette Millington: I think, yeah, I believe it was right around, I guess, I mean, at that point we’re a year in, so I kind of. Uh, think I kind of, I guess it started like, like early on in the pandemic. And just again, hearing from folks who've, at that point, we’re a year in so, you know, it's an experience to kind of get started. So I kind of went with that and built up from there and just added more voices to it. So that’s, if I remember correctly, that's kind of like, early on pandemic, just kind of when the research kind of got going. And that’s kind of when for, for many folks that's…yeah. For many of the sources I spoke to, that's kind of when I kind of really got a lot of their accounts around, a lot of their accounts happened early in the pandemic. So I’d say around then.

Jillian Curwin: Gotcha.. And what questions were you asking?

Milette Millington: Um, I mean, I was just kind of getting them to share their disabled experience as well as just the struggles they've had, just particularly with transportation and um, and just like job hunting and also remote work, given that COVID was and still is, you know, around. So those were the three like branches of my, my project that I focused on.

So yes, I was asking all those kinds of questions. So I, for the transportation aspect, I focused, I focused heavy on Access-A-Ride which is again, you can read the piece that I did on that, but that's just...

Jillian Curwin: Yeah. We're going to have links to it. We're going to get there. We're going to, I'm going to give you a chance to plug it.

Milette Millington: So that, so there was that, that stuff. And then just the job hunting slash, you know, remote work. A lot of folks were saying that, and it's pretty sure, it's very true still today that they were, you know, they found it easier to do a lot of work from home just because that's easier to…less in terms of transportation, less planning and all that. And just because planning and strategizing for something in person, as a disabled person, is a lot. I know, for me, it's a lot to do. To be in like, for, as journalists, if I have to be, you know, between the office of my, my like job and like to be somewhere covering an event in person in the same day, that's a lot because I don't travel on my own. So I always have someone with me, taking me to places, and stuff. Which I'm grateful for truly. So I know that side of things and you know.

And then job hunting stuff just, you know, I mean the whole and I, and on that like I talked it…For on the job hunting aspect, a lot of folks were saying that discrimination was definitely prevalent and it, you know, shouldn't be, but it is. But again, Judy, you were amazing. We literally wouldn’t have what we have all the policies and stuff without you so rest in power. So yeah.

You know discrimination was definitely a key talking point for a lot of folks, you know, that like, but it comes to their, their certain employers it was definitely a key talking point for them. And….yeah, so I’d say that kind of sums up the project in a nutshell.

Jillian Curwin: Yeah, no first shout out to Judy Heumann. We're recording this around, I believe it's ten days as of recording this, that we lost her. And all we can say is rest in power. And thank you, Judy. And that’s not even enough, but, yeah, she's she's the reason I think a lot of us are where we are today. And I'm not saying I think. She is. She is, I will say, that she is, I'm not going to say I think. I know for a fact.

But you talked about having people share their experiences with discrimination. Was it discrimination during the hiring process or discrimination once they were employed? Like, can you talk a little bit more about the discrimination that they were facing?

Milette Millington: It was kind of, I’d say, honestly, a little bit of both.

Jillian Curwin: Yeah.

Milette Millington: More about, more like, I guess, and we can talk about this for some folks, it was also just more the latter of like, once they got, once they kinda did the interview stuff and they got the gig, then it kind of seemed like it was more like there was more discrimination in that sense. But again, you can read the project for that.

Jillian Curwin: Yeah.

Milette Millington: For, for accurate stuff. But you know, yeah. I'd say a bit of both, but more the latter. And I think part of it also was just, I guess, disclosing. A lot of folks talked about, I guess, the, the, the dichotomy of just, you know, just seeing the world being disabled and living your life and also just, and just, you know, making contributions to the world while also, I mean that…And then you also have like the, the side of just, again, discrimination and just not necessarily being scared to disclose. But just, I guess, just being accepted once you disclose and fairly getting a shot at…

Jillian Curwin: Yeah.

Milette Millington: Said gigs. So yeah, I mean there's a lot there but that's what I was saying for, for, for that again, you can, you know, read the project for more accurate stuff.

Jillian Curwin: Yeah. Now, it's interesting when you talk about disclosure because…

Milette Millington: You know. Yeah, and I know, for me, because, because of just my experience, and for folks listening, I am, I have cerebral palsy, which is, I’ll share a link to that too because there’s a lot there that goes into that. And for me I, and I mean I can, another tangent that I don't think I necessarily brought up in my product but something that is also kind of a weird, word dichotomy where two things are clashing is just being in the group that kind of that like, passes as able-bodied. That's a whole other thing. There are folks like me that are, you know, they don't really, I don't use. Oh, well, I mean, physical mobility aids…

Jillian Curwin: Yeah.

Milette Millington: Anymore. Anyway, I used to when I was a kid, I used to use foot braces, but, uh…But, you know, that's a whole other element of just disability and, and just the whole thing of, you know, physical vs. invisible, across the board, we're human.

Jillian Curwin: Right.

Milette Millington: We're…disabled people are human. And we, you know, we make valuable contributions to the world, whether you notice, nobody notices, or not, whether you see, whether you see the impact we're having or not, we are contributing to some of the, you know, really, you know, crucial, important stuff in our world. So, and that, that is part of, I say that's part of the take away that I want folks to, you know, have when they, you know, take in the projects like, hey, we're human, we have lives, we, we exist and we shouldn't be treated as less than human, so... You know, again, Judy, she, she, she goes into all this in depth, but, you know, without the 504 Sit-Ins, you guys, without the Capitol Crawll, without Judy doing all that she's done, we would not have what we have so... But again you know that, so that’s my take away for folks that take in my project.

Jillian Curwin: Yes I, so much that I agree with. You said it's like, it's interesting because I know, and I'm curious if you talked about this with the people you interviewed for this project, with the fact that, you know, it's a voluntary disclosure form now and a lot of applications asking if you are or are not disabled and they give you three options: yes, no, I choose not to answer. And it, uh, part of me understands why…I guess they want to know in the application, but also, at the same time, I kind of don't. So like, regardless of like, why they're asking this in the first place, it feels like, though, as a disabled person, I'm curious, of your thoughts as well. Because I'm also someone, I don't know if I consider myself able-passing in a sense, I guess because I have four arms or…four…in a sense, because I have four limbs and I'm ambulatory. But at the same time I don't think I am. It's like, society doesn't see me as non-disabled. It's very, it's a weird dichotomy there. It’s not truly… But the, the question itself, and I'm curious to hear your thoughts on this like, we can't…choosing not to answer…no non-disabled person is going to say I don't wish to answer that question.

Milette Millington: Yes, for sure.

Jillian Curwin: So anyone who chooses to answer that question is still kind of signaling that they are disabled because why, why would you not disclose that you're able, that you're non-disabled.

Milette Millington: Right. Yeah. And that's, I mean, again, going back to the whole able-bodied thing, I'd say that that's what, you know what, fits me personally. But yeah, I think again, that, that, that's such a tight rope. That's such a, that's such a tug of wars. So I mean, again, it depends on the person and just their experience and just, and for me, I feel like I'm, not that I'm forced to, but I have to just because of, you know, I know my challenges and limitations and stuff. So I know that disclosing upfront has to be top thing for me because of, just given my experience and what I have to deal with, as I mentioned earlier, with transportation and all of that so. Yeah. But honestly I think again it's up to the person, I'm not going to speak for anybody else but…

Jillian Curwin: For sure.

Milette Millington: You know, I mean more than that, more than the person disclosing, I think it's on the employers to just be open, you know, be, be open and truly be inclusive, you know. Like the whole, what’s the thing called, the EEO thing, the equal opportunity employer, whatever it's called...

Jillian Curwin: Equal Employment Opportunity Commission.

Milette Millington: That thing. Yeah, that just, that whole statement of like, you know, diversity and like, we don't judge based on race and all those things like, being true to that is, you know, key for employers across the board regardless of wherever you are in the world, in whatever field you're in. You know, I’d say just staying true to that is a top notch thing, obviously, and also just all the things of the, you know, revised ADA with all of the, you know, elevators and all the things, the transportation, and the doors, and all of that, you know, all the buttons, all of everything. Just all that stuff. Staying true to that is like, a key thing for ensuring that like, you know, that the community is truly thought about and you know, truly represented. So that's, I’ll just cap it there because I'm not like...

Jillian Curwin: Yeah, that's totally fine. Did you talk to employers in your research?

Milette Millington: Honestly, no, I didn't. I didn't. I wanted to focus solely on the community and truly get, you know, a really, you know, authentic true, you know, disabled experience, and that was the focus. Like, I don’t wanna, I don’t wanna hear, I want to be part of, you know…I know I'm, I'm part of the community and so, hey, like, I want to hear from the folks that are actually experiencing it and really get, get them to share, you know, their, their experience. And there are, a view points on this stuff, so…

Jillian Curwin: Absolutely. But then, I'm curious then. As a journalist who has just, or not just, but who did this incredible masters project, who covers disability issues, who covers stories from a disabled perspective, if you could do an addendum to this project where you would ask, talk to employers, what questions would you ask them?

Milette Millington: Ooof, I mean, there are so many.

Jillian Curwin: Yeah.

Milette Millington: But I think if I had to pick…Maybe, I don't know, three…I'd say first off, what like, what are your, what are your actual policies in terms of like, beyond like the, the thing of saying, oh, you know, we're hiring and this is all the information, the policies in terms of when it comes to that equal opportunity statement, what…? How are you actually ensuring that that's being effectively, um, like implemented? How are you actually heeding those words? How are you actually like, making sure that the, the community is, you know, represented and included in that whole umbrella that is the job process, job hunting process?

So my second question that I'd ask is, outside of that is how I guess, how, how is it, how like... I’d also ask about like, accessibility and just what, what is like your, what is your business organization doing to ensure that, you know, that accessibility is a top priority?

And also, just the third question would be, um…I'd say that the third question would probably be in like, in what way is…yeah. In what way is your organization like, you know, truly being open and inclusive to, to the disability community? And, and what is, what is actually being done to truly show that your organization accepts folks who are disabled to, you know, to work at, you know, your respective agency or, you know, branch of your organization etc.? So I'd say that those are the, the three things of many. If I had to pick three, I'd say those three are like top ones. The top questions I’d ask.

Jillian Curwin: All very important questions that I myself would like answers to. And I'm sure our community would love answers to as well. I think that is the, one frustrating part, or one of many frustrating parts, of the hiring process is that it is not transparent, which makes it harder to prove at times whether or not discrimination is happening. And it's like, we can trust our gut, but... yeah, I think that, I think we, we need those answers. I'm going to say it. We need, we need those answers from the employers.

Milette Millington: Oh yeah, for sure. The, um, the, the, the, the ableist approach is just, it's outdated beyond words and it's not effectively how things are supposed to, how things work anymore. Like, it's not, it's not going to work anymore. Like we, we've been here from the, from jump, we've been here as a community. We’ve been here, you know, in the world, I mean. Like, we’ve been here in the world just fighting from the, from the, uh, from the beginning, whenever that was, definitely before Judy was even born.

Jillian Curwin: Way before.

Milette Millington: Like, we've been here fighting for our, our equal rights, and our justice, and all the things. So yeah, ableism is not going to, it's not going to, it's not going to work anymore. So we need to... Employers out there, you need to get, get, like, get your ish together because this is, this is…Just the fact that we're like, almost 33 years into the ADA being a thing, and that like, this is still, this is still a tug of war on both ends. Like, it's just like, it's got to end. So, you know.

Jillian Curwin: You said something and it made me think of a question, you know, talking about like, ableism. Do you think that ableism is, as it is right now, the ableism we face, ableism in general. Do you think it's successful?

Milette Millington: Honestly? Oof. I mean... successful? I don't know if that's the word I'd use. I mean, in some sense, I just feel like it's successful. Successful? I think, I think, yes, in some instances, just by the fact that there are so many, you know, people out there and businesses that, you know, claim to use the whole equal opportunity statement and put that label on there. And they don't, you know, don't actually like, adhere to it.

Jillian Curwin: Yeah.

Milette Millington: But I mean…successful. I don't, I just I think…I mean it's, I mean, it's, it's derogatory beyond words. Like, there's just like such a, pardon my computer moving around, that, yeah, there’s just such a…It's, it's just, there's just such like a I don't, I don't, I don't want to like, say hate, but I guess empowerment within the company when, when situations like, you know, when ableist situations happen to play out and they do play out every day like all the time.

Jillian Curwin: Right.

Milette Millington: Whether we see them or not. So I think, just it empowers us to just, you know, fight, fight through it and fight past it. And I think that, you know, again, that, that’d be like my, my message to, you know, employers out there like, I don't know if you've ever encountered a, a disabled person, visibly or invisibly disabled, visible or not. I don't know if you've ever encountered a disabled person in your life like, ever, but if not, you need to, like, get you need to get in tune with it because this, this whole thing of like, the equal opportunity statement has just been used as a, you know, a label and, and, and then, you know, not following through with it is just I mean, the stats are just crazy. I don't know them off the top of my head, but they’re crazy. The fact that like, 15% of our world is disabled, y’all. 15%. That doesn't seem like a lot. But in the world, that is a lot. That's a lot of people.

Jillian Curwin: I think it's 20. I think it's even higher. I think it's 20%.

Milette Millington: 15 to 20% or whatever.

Jillian Curwin: That's still a lot. That's a lot of people.

Milette Millington: Yeah, exactly. So you know. Yeah, for the employers out there, you need to really like, get out into your in, into, you know, whatever community you're in, in the world, whatever language you speak, whatever it is, whatever, whatever language you speak, whatever wherever you're at in the world, you need to really get to know the people that you're that you know, that are in your area, that are, you know, that, that, you know, the folks that like exist just in general everybody everybody that’s in your community. Because, you know, you never know. You might you might end up, you know, hopefully meeting some disabled folks who have just, you know, unique experience that, you know, that can help you like, help you and your business really kind of make the the positive impact that that we need to see that, you know, that positive impact that I believe my work is making on the community. So…

Jillian Curwin: Absolutely.

Milette Millington: Yeah. Just get out there. Meet them. They’re out, we're out here. We, we, we've, we've been here.

Jillian Curwin: We've been here. We're not going anywhere.

Milette Millington: No. Yeah, we, we, you know, we we’re people. Just, talk to us. Get to know us, you know, really just listen. Don't just like, pass us off as, you know, whatever you want. Just hear. Hear us out. Listen, we have stories to tell. We are you know, we we need to be listened to [unintelligible] Again, I think, uh, yes, I’d say that's a message for employees. And I'd say that, again, ableism, and as I said before, it's, it's such a tug of war type thing but, like, uh, you know, again, it, it empowers us. So yeah, us as a community and for folks, for employees that aren't, you know, doing anything about it, you know, you really need to, because for it to fall on us as a community, to do the work, to fight. The, our own like, just organization of our own community. Like, like where's the, where's the, where's the…there's no like, what's the thing called? Logic? There's no logic there. Why must us, as a community, why must we be the people that…I'm sure not, there's nothing against that at all. I’m not shaming that at all, but I'm just saying...

Jillian Curwin: It can't just be on us.

Milette Millington: Yeah. It can't just be on us and our allies. Like, we have to, you know, like every, everybody in the world has to, you know, especially the employers, you know, as I said, you got to really get out there, really talk to us like, we're out here. So, you know.

Jillian Curwin: Exactly.

Um, who do you look up to?

Milette Millington: Uh. In the community? I mean, Judy, for sure. She, I don't know if you saw my…she spoke at my eighth grade graduation. I went to [unintelligible] junior high school in Brooklyn. She, we had our graduation ceremony at Brooklyn College at that time, and she was a keynote speaker, and that, obviously don't remember much of the actual speech, but as I indicated in my post, the message there was just…It just stuck with me and that, you know, it's been just part of, part of one of the, uh, one of the messages of positivity that I just kept, you know, like, in the back of my mind and just it's kind of been with me just and, I mean... Who do I look up to? I mean, other than Judy. Ugh, other than Judy, I mean, obviously, you because this podcast like, what…

Jillian Curwin: Oh, thank you.

Milette Millington: Like this is, this is such a amazing platform. Thank you again for just having it be here in, in our world and, uh…Obviously I'd say, I would say like the, the Black Disability Collective for sure. They are, you know, I do, I’ve connected with some of those folks in that group and they just, hearing their stories has been, you know, just incredible. So, uh, I mean, but yeah, there's, there's so many. I would say, I would definitely say Issa. She is doing, she's currently doing a webinar thing or whatever series with the ACLU right now. She is…Oh she’s, she’s amazing. Yeah, actually yes. It's like, she's some of the, those are just some of the folks I follow and connect with that I look up to.

Jillian Curwin: Love that. And thank you for that, by the way. That was really sweet, and, wow, I’ve kinda really lost words for that.

Okay. Are there any questions I have not asked that you would like to answer?

Milette Millington: Oh, no. I think that pretty much sums it up. I think.

Jillian Curwin: Okay, it's totally acceptable answer to the question.

Now is the time for you to plug yourself. Where can people follow you? Where can people read the stories you are writing? Where can people read your master's projects? Plug yourself. This is your space to do it.

Milette Millington: Oh so yeah, I have a whole Linktree with all the, all my socials, so I'll share that and then I’ll share the, there’s a link to the, my capstone, which is on my, my website so I’ll share that link but I'm, I'm on Facebook, I'm on, Instagram, I'm on…I was on Twitter, but that is now being, that is now being removed from my list, just with all the stuff going on there. But Facebook, Instagram, YouTube. I'm also on Mastodon and Muckrack. Those are two newish platforms for me, for journalists. You know, Twitter alternatives.And I'm also on Clubhouse. Thank you to Marie, if you know Marie, she is…I, I covered, I did a whole, I covered like, maybe two of the sessions and the whole disability pride month series that she did like last year. That was great. So yeah, I’m on there. Although I don't really use that much but, you know, I have a profile there. So, so yeah Facebook, Instagram, Clubhouse, um, Youtube, Mastodon, Muckrack…What else? [unintelligible] is a backup platform, a backup, you know place where I store my work other than the website. And I have my data stuff on GitHub which is a, you know, and then all that like through, through my, through my master’s program. So there's that too. But again, I'll share all the links.

And my project, uh, it is, in addition to my website, it is on the CUNY academic works platform, so I’ll share that link too, because it can officially, like, be downloaded and kept in your history of stuff that you download. So, um, there's that too. So yeah. So yeah, those are just my, my platforms and stuff.

Jillian Curwin: And I will have links to all of that in the show notes as well as on the transcription pa-, transcription page. So go follow, go read her work.

Milette Millington: Yes. And I'll share the link to the Carribean Life stuff too. I have a link for that. And I have, and yeah. And as I have you here, if you don't mind, I plan on putting this on YouTube just to kind of give, you know, you know just get some more folks kind of…

Jillian Curwin: For sure.

Milette Millington: In tune with the whole thing. So again, thank you for just having me on and thank you for this platform it's just great to, to finally do this. And talk to you, cause we've had to, we’ve scheduled...

Jillian Curwin: It was a process getting here, but we did it.

Milette, thank you so much for coming on, for taking the time to talk with me, for doing the work that you're doing. It is so incredibly important and we need more disabled voices in these spaces. So thank you for being one of them again. If you aren’t following her already, please go do so. Please go read her work. It's incredible.

So before we wrap up I kind of like to do, and I kind of, I like to do an icebreaker, but it's kind of it's at the end because it's more fun that way. And it's my show. So I have five categories here and I just want to hear your favorite in each one.

Milette Millington: Okay, okay.

Jillian Curwin: Favorite book.

Milette Millington: Ooof. Favorite book. What I'm going to do is I'm going to say favorite author of all time.

Jillian Curwin: Perfect.

Milette Millington: My favorite author of all time is Rick Riordan. By the way for, for, for, for nerds like me, there's a new book coming out in the, in the original series, the first series that started it all for me later in this year. So I'm stoked about that. But yeah, Rick Riordan, he's everywhere. You just google him, you'll find all his stuff, all his socials. He's great. I love his stuff. But yeah, favorite author of all time check…check done.

Jillian Curwin: I think my brother can jump in and correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it's one that's one of his favorite authors. So shout out. My little brother will appreciate that and he can jump in and correct me if I'm wrong.

Favorite TV show.

Milette Millington: Ooof. Favorite right now, too many, too many to count. To be honest, too many to count. Too many to count. Ooof. Gosh, too many to count. I can't. Too many to count. Too many to count. There’s way too many. Just, I mean the networks I’m really plugged into right now. I'm in CBS, NBC, ABC. I have yet to get to CW just like…Oh some stuff but, you know, but yeah.

Jillian Curwin: There's a lot of content out there. It's hard to pick a favorite.

Favorite drink.

Milette Millington: Oooh, drink, favorite drink. I mean, honestly I, I, I just, I love, like… favorite drink. I love a, I love a, a chilled Canada Dry ginger ale like that's like…Anytime I have the, the opportunity to, I just go for that because that's, I mean, there's too many to count, but if I had to pick one non-alcoholic, if I had to pick one, that would be like the one.

Jillian Curwin: There you go.

Favorite piece of advice you've ever given.

Milette Millington: Favorite piece of advice I’ve ever given. Oof I’ve given quite a bit of advice. But I think, for folks listening now, I’d just say that, advice I give to disabled folks out there in the world, I'd say that, you know, uh, just keep going. Don't, don't like, don't let anybody tell you that you can't do something, you know? And, and that that's one of the messages that I took away from Judy’s speech, you know, from my previous reference earlier. So I'd say that because, again thank you Judy. You are just…So yeah, I, I would say that that's that's, that's something that I would share with folks.

Jillian Curwin: Perfect. And the last one favorite piece of advice you've ever received.

Milette Millington: Oh, favorite, uhh again. I could probably go with the same one, because, Judy, I mean, that's like, that's always been something I've kind of just had in my toolbox when it comes to just living life, and just any time I need, like inspiration of any kind I think about that. So again, thank you, Judy, for just being as amazing as you were. Still so weird saying that, like…

Jillian Curwin: I know, but thank you so much. That is a perfect note to end on. Thank you for coming on, for sharing your story, for celebrating Judy. We can never do that enough on this podcast, or really on any platform.

The final, final thing I just have to ask of you is for you to remind my listeners in your most fierce, fierce, most badass voice possible that height is just a number, not a limit.

Milette Millington: Oh, yeah, yeah, of course. Yeah. Height, I mean, honestly, it doesn't, it doesn't matter how tall you are. It doesn't matter what you do, what you, what your status is. What, like, all your race and gender and class and all the things. None of that matters. As long as you're just doing something that makes you happy and something that leaves an impact on the world, that's all that matters. I mean, height, height, I mean, height does not matter. Height is not, you know, height doesn't limit you from, prevent you from doing anything that you would like, that, anything that you want to do. So yeah, height is nothing but a simple metric that is just unimportant.

Jillian Curwin: There you go.

Always Looking Up is hosted by Jillian Curwin and edited and produced by Ben Curwin. Please make sure to rate, review, and subscribe and follow on Spotify so that you never miss an episode. Follow me on Instagram @jill_iana and the podcast @alwayslookingup.podcast for updates and check out my blog, JillianIlana.com for more content about what it is like to be a little person in an average sized world.

Thanks for listening. See you next week.

Read Milette's Capstone: Working in New York City With a Disability: Nowhere Near Easy

Read Milette's articles published in Caribbean Life HERE

Follow Milette On Social Media HERE

Listen To Milette Millington On The Current State Of Ableism In The Workplace

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